SAFETY PERSPECTIVE FROM AN OWNER update Sept 2012

 
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:31 pm    Post subject: SAFETY PERSPECTIVE FROM AN OWNER update Sept 2012 Reply with quote

Thank you and WELCOME!!!

Send me email to Bushtracker on Scheduling.... I will look into it and see where you are at if it has not already been done..

Do us all a favour and have a look at the Section on SAFETY WHEN TOWING... See if your situation is covered there. If I have left something out, please let me know and I will add it to the section.

In fact, of 8 vans that have rolled in 11 years that I have looked into there is one very scary thing in common... THIS IS CONTROVERSIAL and I am glad I am not somewhere the Right Wing Fems can throw rocks at me... Please, Ladies, I am trying to help... But it is scary and one of the Postings I was going to put up... In 7 out of 8, (not that is not a very big data base so not statistically accurate) but in 7 out of 8 it has been the Wives driving...

I am thinking that the obvious is that Men have more towing experience, maybe Driving experience, and while there are B-Double Licenses Ladies out there, a lot of them may not have quite the same average experiences.

In almost all the case studies I made as much as possible, it looks like some of the Ladies had a tendency to OVER CORRECT... When I was in Driving School we soon learned that off on the soft shoulder, you did not OVER REACT, BUT INSTEAD MERGED BACK ON THE ROAD SLOWLY..

The same for my Medium Rigid License. My Son, put the Landcruiser on a soft shouldered track off on the right, Panicked and over steered to the left and almost put it into a Creek on the left stradling the road !!! I may have to make this a TIP, not sexist, but maybe we need to help the some of our Wives master slow correction and not panic over correction as seems to be a common factor in most of the occurrences...

Now I will retire to get yelled at ... thanks... But I took a risk here to try and help.... I see the 1000, and may have a view some can't see ... See the first Thread and I am up to my neck in it... Please Ladies, don't me mad, I mean well and am trying to do my best to help everyone... This is an alarming statistical trend that deserves your consideration as to the possible cause...

Or, it is just a statistical anomoly, and just a coincidence...

Be careful out there..!!! And please forgive me, I mean no harm,... [/i][/b]

************************************************************

Thanks for the reply Steve.

As regards driving technique I'm not sure that your tips cover not making any sudden initial movement of the steering wheel particularly on low traction surfaces. It is interesting that this is something that J** and I had discussed on several occasions prior to the accident and yet when the time came, instinct took over.

The only way I can see to prevent this is for the driver to quickly drill themselves on this whenever they get behind the wheel on a low traction surface. It's a bit like pilots drilling themselves on what to do in case of an engine failure on take off on every take off. Hopefully it will never happen but at least you are much more prepared if it does. I wonder if there is the possibilty of a practical course for the secondary driver which could be held at Bushtracker get togethers. There could be discussion on driving techniques and some basic mechanical issues for the secondary driver. Better to have them as informed and educated as possible rather than excluded and not knowing what to do if they are suddenly on their own. Oh well, maybe that's just a pipe dream.

Once again congratulations on your new baby (the forum). It is probably the most professional forum I have seen.

Regards,

T****

************************************************************
friends,

It may be worth while, to see that our Ladies get some coaching on not over reacting or over correcting as well as driving on low traction surfaces like the bauxite gravel. Not to be sexist, but 98% of the Tow Vehicle driving seems to be done by men, and if the Ladies are going to take the wheel, it is us to us to see that they have the proper practice. Things like running off on a soft shoulder and slowly correcting coming back on the road. It is up to us to see that they are prepared to take the wheel. Remember, this could be a six or seven ton Rig, maybe 14 metres long. It is our responsibility to coach whomever we allow to take the wheel. Maybe that is the answer.

Regards, to safety, Ranger


Last edited by Bushtracker on Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:57 pm; edited 2 times in total
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beatit



Joined: 20 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:07 pm    Post subject: Safety Reply with quote

Thanks for this post Steve. I passed it on to Lis (the bride) as an explantion as to why I should feel a little nervous with her behind the wheel! The stats don't Lie!

Seriously you highlight a very important point about those with us that don't regularly drive and tow. They need the opportunity to become more competant so that they can drive with confidence.

Kind regards

Theo
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Wherrol



Joined: 22 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Steve,

As a woman that spent over three years on the road, (and we never even looked like tipping the van) there are a couple of things I would like to point out.

1. The 'looks' - of disbelief we (Mum and I) got as we rolled into a van park were hilarious.
2. Blokes would ask if my Mum would tow the van. You bet, of course she did. We used to swap drivers every hour. The only reason I would drive into the park was that she hated backing the van.
3. Women would say 'he' won't let me drive the van.
4. Or 'dearie' I would never be allowed to drive the van, I do the inside work.
5. I was taught by a lovely elderly gent (in Airlie Beach) how to back the van onto a site. It was just so simple when showed how. He showed me how to measure out the spot, put a jumper (or marker) on the spot where you would like your right carvan tyre was to go, and 'chase' the van in. Easy. Mum would just sit in the passenger seat and watch the front bonnet in case I got close to any obstruction.
6. By the way I was also taught (by another lovely bloke) how to back onto the hitch, with no directions.

Note here: We were so green when we started to tow a caravan we had to be towed to the first carvan park, we did not even know you needed a power cord to plug into electricity! Did I mention green!!!

We soon learnt. And the blokes that helped us learn were really really fantastic.

So what I am trying to say is maybe the blokes should give the women a few pointers, as you suggested. Maybe they should be towing on a turn by turn basis. Our plan is to swap drivers every 1 hour or so.

I don't find your view point controversial more that there are reasons (as you suggested) behind it.

And of course anyone can tip anything anytime. Sometimes things just go wrong.

An aside here: We are picking up our van in April, I know it is all like riding a bike, I just hope I remember how. We are going to do a course the day after pickup just to be sure to be sure. Still slightly terrified though. Allan, for some reason is not. Mmmm.

Allan and SharĂ³n
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Yogi and Muffin



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Allan and Sharon,

I totally agree. My wife and I shared the driving 2 hours each and this really reduces the fatigue factor. Sure she was driving when we rolled the van and car and admits to a bad driving error. However I do not intend to ban her from driving when we get our new (or rebulit) van. For a start my life would not be worth living but secondly we can all make mistakes and I am sure it is something she will never do again.
I will certainly be totally vigilant while she is driving and I'm sure she will be when I am driving and we will be extremely careful on low traction surfaces but both partners need the driving experience.
Regards,
Tony
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Wherrol



Joined: 22 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tony,

You are right anyone can do anything, just takes one second.

Steve was saying, in a post he made earlier about the 'quilting' on the road, and how the van water tanks were incorrectly filled i.e. in the wrong order. If he can do it oh help!!

And there are so many people that are not given the correct information to begin with (by other caravan companies). EG Mum and I had electric brakes on our caravan, how were we supposed to know they needed a little box in the car to actually make them work!!

We started out as novices, and learnt a huge amount en-route, thanks to the lovely folk we met along the way. We were just lucky that nothing happened in the 'bad' line. And we had a ball.

That is why Allan and I enjoy Steve's web site. From one extreme to the other from no knowledge with the first van we are sucking in so much info for this van. We admit that this time it is different we really want to get off the tarmac. Dottie (Mum) and I felt we could not do that before. Though she would have loved to.

So reading posts like yours is so important. And hopefully so will be the Tow Ed course that we do.

Allan and SharĂ³n
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Grumblebum and the Dragon



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Husbands that don't teach their wifes to drive in all conditions and situations could be signing their own dealth warrants.

In an emergency medical situation they (the ladies) may have to drive the rig and do it well whilst under stress under stress.

Thr 'Dragon' gets as much of the driving as I do - in all situations and she has to be able to hitch and un-hitch and she can often reverse better than me, albeit more slowly.

She also has to be confident in using the HF and UHF radio, know the emerency frequencies etc.

I haven't tested her un-bogging capacity - so maybe next time she can do the tyres, digging and jacking etc and I will collect the dead wood and rocks! Laughing

And, how many of both of you do not have current first aid certificates Question

Travel safe

John and Jean
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Mobi Condo



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got to agree with John & Jean here, we are both certificated for work requirements of 1st aid, but we also would be for travels - hoping to heck we NEVER have to use the skills of course. Have been first on site at two incidents now, thankfully not serious. Plus we carry a large 1st aid kit in car and have a smaller soft pack for the walking back packs.
Re driving - both have to be proficient - we have had two situations where by Sally has HAD to drive at least half a day due to Ian's illness or injury.
Re radio - well Smile please excuse me here - but ladies generally talk very well - now before you hit me - seriously from CFS days - ladies generally have a better "Radio voice" for some reason of the tones being better and our Bush Telegraph base operators all comment that way.
Cheers - Ian & Sally
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Bushtracker
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again from you know who.... Laughing

Look, I just had some people in here who lost their home, their Bushtracker. They rolled and totalled their van at about 80km per hour, never mind they are getting their new van in about four weeks: I want to reiterate and review something here of benefit for you, the other Owners....

This could have been avoided. They bought a second hand one from years ago, and did not benefit from our Coaching. They are now going to be active and get caught up on some of these Safety Tips and the rest of the Goodies on this Forum like Maintenance and such... But there is an important lesson to be learned from their mishap... Exclamation

What happened was they were going down a hill with a 20' Bushtracker on the back of a Toyota and boat on top... A severe gusty wind broadsided them, and they got a sway up.... She was driving.... He yelled "Let off the accelerator!!" She was already off... But She panicked and did the exact wrong thing and hit the brakes when the van was at an angle to the tow vehicle in the sway. The van pushed the tow vehicle around and off the road and the van rolled over. A bad high speed one, no one hurt, not even the dogs, God Blessed that one and give Thanks...

Now, what should have happened??? How could this have been averted? Here is a Tip you need to put in practice, not just the Ladies.. (But this does add to the statistical anomaly..)

First of all, they needed to know the van was loaded properly with about 10% ball weight and this may have prevented it on its own... But then again it can happen for other reasons like the right timing with quilting on the road or any number of outside factors.. Anyway, put your brake controller so it is in a handy place and easy to reach. When you driving and slowing up, once every few hours or so, reach down and squeeze the manual over-ride on the Brake Controller. Idea Wink First of all this will tell you the brakes are working and you will feel the van pull you up a little. Don't do this at high speed, and don't lock up the tyres, just enough to feel it pulling you up.. OK?

Now, if you do this, and mentally condition yourself to HIT THAT FIRST IN A PANIC in a sway.... It will SNAP THE VAN BACK BEHIND you in those first few seconds before you apply the vehicle brakes (gently if you have the room) and this will keep you in control... Don't slam on the brakes in a panic as that feeds the problem, if you have the room apply the caravan brakes first, then the tow vehicle brakes gently to slow down in control.. By applying the caravan brakes first: It prevents the Jack-knife situation, in snapping the van back in line so the tow vehicle brakes can take over with the van in line instead of overtaking the tow vehicle at an angle.. OK? This kind of sway might only happen to 1 in 100, but the results can be catastrophic.

Some people in the rumour chain will tell you to accelerate in a sway... While this can work, it can also get you into deeper trouble and IS NOT MY ADVICE... It can spell disaster some times. Using the manual over-ride of the brake controller in the sway situation is almost entirely fool proof and will work everytime. OK with this??

Any questions or clarifications needed PLEASE ASK...

Semper Fidelis
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Darren & Marie



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Lone Ranger,
Thank you for this invaluable lesson, and here we are as you have captured our attention Shocked Shocked It may take some time to talk Marie into driving after this one and we fully understand and appreciate the effort you put into the safety program here on the forum.

While we are not in a position to order our Bushtracker for a couple of years yet we are going over everything we can on the forum. Thank you for your help to all of us Bushtracker owners to be, it is such a great effort and we want you to know it is a big plus to us in what you call the "learning curve" and we will definitely be buying a Bushtracker. What a great service to owners.
With gratitude, Darren and Marie
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bonnidowns



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I add that we share all the driving 50/50
It was decided to put the brake controller on the dash so that in an emergency either the driver or passenger can apply the caravan breaks.
We are both confident in how it works.
As a female driver I would have to add that is much more fun driving on small country roads with all the dips and bends, than the boring hi-ways

Sheryl
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AlexMc



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:57 pm    Post subject: safety when towing Reply with quote

Hi,

Having held a Heavy Rigid licence for 40 years and having driven everything from high powered 1000cc sportsbikes to 250 ton Haul Packs (Iorn ore trucks) I'd stress the point "What's the major difference between a normal driver and a heavy goods vehicle driver. Putting aside such things as experience, knowledge, quality of vehicle, load, revs & gear management ect., the most important point is whether your a reactionary or pre-emptive driver. Most car drivers dawdle along with their minds on whatever and something has to happen for them to take notice and react accordingly. Seems adequate in city driving in a car where it is accepteable to be constantly distracted with a hands free mobile phone. When you have tons of inertia (4x4+BT=5tons+) that work against anything happening quickly you have to be pre-emptive. You just have to see well in advance and be-ready for it. So seat-of the pants feel for what the vehicle/load is doing, constant attention to sounds, vibrations, smells, constantly scanning of gauges, mirrors, possible hazards ahead. Driving is a full time occupation which deserves full time attention not something you do adhoc whilst attention is elsewhere. You only have to have a near miss with a heavy goods vehicle to know that you never want that to happen again. Sooo, if you find yourself getting really comfortable and laid back in your towing, think front right blowout with under a second to stop sloughing into oncoming traffic.
Or you could take my Triumph Daytona 955 for a spin in Sydney, that certainly sharpens everything up a notch.

Sometimes the best feature of a Bushtracker can be its worst, "rides so well you forget that it's there". (How often have you read that on this forum?)

Take it real easy, Stay Safe, get there eventually and enjoy one for me.
Cheers
Alex
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rockgoc



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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 6:52 pm    Post subject: A lucky end to a sad event. Reply with quote


Here you have the result of a badly maintained road, coupled with a very heavy volume of traffic, at night, near nil visibility due to dust,and a driver totally unfamiliar with the road, and a really dumb decision made!
Easy and I were driving home from the local rodeo in a long line of traffic, along a road which had not seen a drop of water or any thing remotely like dust suppressor. The atmosphere was so thick it was choking. I was driving as the designated sober driver, and I made the decision to overtake the vehicle in front which was travelling at approx. 15-20kmh. The reason I made this decision was because I had a moment of clear view ahead as the wind moved the dust curtain, and IT WAS SAFE TO DO SO. Almost as soon as I had completed the exercise, the road just disappeared in front of me as it curved to the right and I was forced to complete a sweeping right hand turn in loose dirt in a near brownout. I have a heavy vehicle license and I spent a few years using it, so I was confident I was driving to rule in the slow slide (estimated at around 40kmh-)I found myself in ,going around that corner. Our F truck was around 3 tonne loaded so I had a lot of truck to get around the bend and things were going well until ,we think, the rear left tyre peeled off the rim and over she went. I had done everything right....steer into the slide, feather the juice slightly on , and DON'T go near the brake. But as fate would have it, the tyre just couldn't cope. We had very large profile oversized tyres and rims fitted as an extra safe ride too. You just can't predict when enough tyre is enough tyre. The road was dead level, but loose dirt, and I think nothing was going to see us any ways but upside down. It is all sooo easy to do! Hindsight is wonderful too, and if I had some time back, there's no way I would have passed that slow vehicle. I would sit behind him until sun up now! Can't take it back, so I learn. We got away with our lives...me with a head ful of metal staples to hold it together brusing and neck damage, and Easy got a few cuts and bruises and would you believe it, the hat stayed on the whole time!
Stay safe and patient on the roads.
Here endeth the sermon. Regards, Jan O
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CD&JW



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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jan
Heart was in my mouth as I read your post. All I can say is I am so glad you are both (relatively) OK.
Joan

Thank you Jan O and Easy, for putting this here... Like I said, in sharing this you may in fact be saving someone else. Thank the Lord that you came through this with relatively minor injuries, and thank you for putting this on as a learning curve to help others... Wink
God Bless, and God Speed, lone Ranger

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Bushtracker
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Friends,

I am updating this Topic, in an effort to help some of you Newbies with what is the most dangerous driving mistake that people make.. I have just done 4400 kms, going very hard on dirt tracks, and there is something important here to learn from with a few examples..

Now, admittedly I was travelling faster than was safe or I would advise under ANY CONDITIONS… I was doing 90 kph, and the single suspension was getting a far harder workout than the Tandem Load Sharing version that Matthew was towing, because the Tandem being Load Sharing it is self-dampening where the single version is just rebounding and blasting into ruts all on its own without the Load Sharing. I was going too fast for safety in these conditions, as I was really trying to break the suspension or find its weak points (didn't).. I would blast on ahead, and then wait for Matthew and Joshua to catch up with the larger Bushtracker. All went well on the trip, however, there are a few conditions here to learn from by example, so let me see if I can help you understand...



SAFETY WARNING AND DRIVING LESSON: I was actually travelling beyond a safe level by 15-20 kph, and losing steering hitting dry bulldust pans over speed. Another dangerous condition I encountered, was running up over high ridges of gravel separating the wheel tracks. Now note, if you feel EITHER OF THESE, You are travelling too fast for safety. In both conditions you would lose steering a bit for a couple of seconds, and the inexperienced will automatically oversteer trying to regain control… YOU DO NOT DO THISInstead you “Ride it out”…

Look, I am a Professional Driver and was pushing the boundary a little (read a lot). Where people come to grief in this instance, is over steering trying to regain control, but when control comes back on a firm surface again>> They are over steered and the vehicle reacts too strongly, and they get in trouble.


The thing to do is NOT react, just take your foot off the accelerator, and as you hit the new wheel tracks off the gravel ridge or the edge of the dust pan and make steering contact you are automatically back in control… Steady, steady, steady, and it is all OK… Just like if you run off onto a soft shoulder, people that have not gotten professional training just do not know the RIDE IT OUT, RIDE IT OUT, RIDE IT OUT and get back on slowly; People lacking that professional training come to grief as they over steer and when they come back off the shoulder the car LURCHES right out of control… THIS (besides excessive speed) is exactly the single largest reason people roll vehicles and vans, is this over reaction.

Kind regards, on the road with the Ranger
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Tellem Bugrem



Joined: 26 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Easy Does it - Slowly regain Control Reply with quote

Another point that I have found in investigating contributory factors in accidents. Studies of yaw marks, skid marks and pavement gouging reveal tell-tale signs of over-reacting when the wheels on one side of the vehicle encounter a different surface than the wheels on the other.

For example if the left wheels leave the bitumen and are running on loose gravel whilst the right wheels are still on the bitumen, or, when on a gravel road if the left wheels hit a grader wind-row, or soft bull-dust....and the right wheels are still on hard gravel. Sometimes the left wheels hit corrugations, either wash-board or the big 6 inchers, or maybe this happens to the right wheels. Then there's the "hoofugations" where cattle have been walking along a wet dirt road and then it dries out before traffic has smoothed the hoof marks.

The point is, when you find yourself in any of these situations :-
    1. Do not hit the brakes! The coefficient of friction (braking effectiveness) between the left wheels and the road will be vastly different to the coefficient of friction between the right wheels and the road. One side of the vehicle will slow and the other side will keep going. Yep, you are out of control and heading for a jack-knife and roll-over.
    2. Do not steer sharply back onto the even surface. Again, the steering effect of the front left tyre will be different to that of the right tyre....again you will quickly lose control. If you brake and steer at the same time, the situation will be many times worse!
    3. Ease off the accelerator and maintain steering in the same line. As Steve says...easy...easy...gradually you will slow and regain control.
    4. Learn to recognise these conditions from as far ahead as you can see, then pick your line and speed so as to avoid these situations.
    5.Take your time, avoid driving in late afternoons...;.. these conditions are much harder to recognise then....and besides, you are missing your own happy hour!

    Cheers........Rob

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Tands



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good advice, and from one who witnessed just such a single vehicle accident some years ago, you don't need to be towing a van to get into that sort of trouble. The exact same principle applies if you're not towing anything but driving at some speed and encounter a loose shoulder etc.

The accident we witnessed finished with the vehicle rolling several times and coming to rest on its roof about 40 metres off the road. Fortunately (and luckily), none of the 3 occupants were seriously hurt.
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